Creative Status: Episode 31: Michaell Magrutsche: Transcending Ego, Systems, & Shiny Object Syndrome

Shiny Object Syndrome distracts you from what’s REAL ?

The objects that often ‘shine’ the most for us are the one’s that call to us because of our unconscious fears, needs, and desires.

When you think about it like this, it speaks buckets that human beings find themselves to be so shiny and interesting – so much so that our ideas about ourselves often DISTANCE us from nature itself and prevent us from living REAL lives of expansion and growth towards WHOLENESS.

The ‘cure’ for Shiny Object Syndrome always starts with the same thing: AWARENESS.

When we do the inner work to become more aware, we can put ourselves on the path to truly accepting ourselves, and then taking inspired action in the world (instead of only being ‘inspired’ BY it).

In this episode of Creative Status, I get deep into it with Michaell Magrutsche, an artist, podcaster, author, and coach who believes that AWARENESS TRUMPS ALL and that the main cause of problems in our lives is a being caught up in systems and concepts that distort our awarness of human-nature and nature itself.

If you’ve listened to the show before or read any of my ‘stuff’ (like my book Personal Revolutions: A Short Course in Realness) then you’ll know these themes are right up my street because I also believe that treating the ‘world’ (system) as reality itself is a massive source of friction, frustration, and misery in our lives!

Despite our agreement, there was also some disgreement in this conversation which led to some really creative dialogue and back-and-forth as we tried to find some common ground.

This was really a very powerful conversation – not just in WHAT we discussed but also HOW we went about it.

We cover loads of ground and this episode is a little longer than average:

-Ego transcendence

-Systems and the limits of the world in general

-How the systems infilitrate our thinking and way of being

-How the creative process truly is the way into realness

-TONS of other things

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Show Transcript (Beta Version):

Show Intro:

Oli Anderson: Oh, hi there.

Oli Anderson here. You’re listening to Creative Status. If you don’t know, this is a podcast about using the creative process as a vehicle for becoming more real. My job, if you want to call it a job, is coaching and I’m also an author and I help people to become more real in either life or business. Being more real in this context just means that they are moving towards wholeness, whatever that means to them.

That doesn’t mean that we can just cherry pick anything because wholeness ultimately comes with the feeling of expansion, of growth, of flow, and it means that we’re not forcing life through the conceptual bullshit basically that we’ve picked up and being conditioned with by the world. Today’s interview is with a guy called Michael Magrutsche. He is a very interesting guy. He’s an author. He’s a podcaster. He’s an artist.

And one of the things that he’s really interested in is how the systems that we build, aka the world, which is another way of describing these systems, how the systems that we build either allow us to be real or to be unreal. Now, this conversation is probably a very good example of a dialogue more than just a debate or a discussion. We didn’t agree with each other at all times. It was a little bit cagey, shall we say at times, but it was a really amazing conversation. And towards the end of it, we kind of came into some kind of synthesis of our ideas and we sort of came to an agreement, I think.

Either way, there’s tons of insight in here. I had a really good time going through this process with Michael. And I hope that you enjoy listening to it. Michael, thank you so much for your time. Everybody else, thanks for listening. And if you enjoyed the show, please leave a review somewhere or send me a DM about future guests. If you want to be a guest yourself as well, you can put yourself forward. We can have a quick conversation.

Either way, thank you so much. And here we go.


Oli Anderson: Oh, hi there, Michael. Thank you so much for joining me today on this episode of Creative Status. We have had some very philosophical explorations already in our short time together here on Planet Earth. Before we expand upon all the stuff that we’ve been talking about here on the podcast, would you like to introduce yourself and tell people who you are, obviously, but also what you’re all about, what you do, and what you want to get from this conversation that we’re about to dive into?

Michaell Magrutsche: Hi, Oli. My name is Michael Magrutsche.

I was born in Vienna, Austria. And I was a sick child and then went to school and hit the wall because I was nervous. I have dyslexia and dysgraphia.

And then when I was 30, because art always saved me, it brought me always to the life is worth living. And I am not educated because I had to repeat three grades and I just couldn’t. I’m still very nervous. And I want to say that as a background that people don’t freak out if they don’t have a degree, I’m nothing in this system. So I have zero education. I’m totally self taught. And I still, with all that stuff, I still worked with Robin Evans, who did The Godfather, co-produced with him.

I did was City Arts Commission of Newport Beach. I wrote five books. So I can’t read books, but I can write them. So that’s basically what I’m all about. So what I found by not fitting into systems is what interests you that that and I’m also in the arts.

And I’m actually, you know, my systemic explanation of what I do is multidisciplinary artists, plus creativity awareness educator. So I basically don’t have steps to tell you or what to do. You just listen to this program and you make up your own mind. I believe with that.

Oli Anderson: Okay. So just so people kind of understand what you what you actually do on a kind of day to day basis. What is it that you are, you know, currently doing as a vocation or a calling or a job, whatever you want to call it. When you say that you’re self taught, what are you like a self taught? What?

Michaell Magrutsche: I don’t understand the question.

Oli Anderson: Basically, what do you do for a living? Like what you said you’re self-taught, you don’t have an education and all this kind of stuff. What? What did you, you know, as an autodidact or whatever? What did you teach yourself?

Michaell Magrutsche: So obviously, there’s nothing to do with systems, but I am in the system of restaurant hospitality, guest relationships. Yep. Meaning, whoever hires me, make sure I am the representation of the house.

Okay. So I represent the house, the hotel, the restaurant, whatever. And in this actually consult. And also I learn it’s all about human business. It’s on and human business.

I have no problems. I’m like a master in dancing with humans.

Oli Anderson: Yeah, brilliant. And that’s actually going to be the main theme of this conversation, I think, human business. So I’m just going to dive right into it. So a lot of your work in your books and all these kinds of things is about systems and the way that our creativity as a species has caused us to build systems that are not necessarily the best systems for human beings and human nature.

Now, this is something that I’m really interested in as well. So one of my books, Personal Revolutions is basically about this idea that the world and reality are separate things. But the problem is that a lot of the time human beings take the world, which is just something that human beings have designed based on all of their assumptions and emotional stuff and blah, something that human beings have designed as a response to reality. We take that at face value and we treat it as being something that’s true. And that causes all kinds of problems. So just to get the conversation going, I guess, how do you see that gap between the world and reality if there is one?

And I know that’s a huge question, but just take it.

Michaell Magrutsche:  Not for me. I have… No, not at all, because I can’t tell you linearly what happened. So basically, after generation of system conditioning, so what is a system? A system is a bigger thing than a tribe. A tribe is still organic.

It’s probably, they say the best system is a tribe is 150. That is scientifically proven. I don’t know if that’s true, but that’s everybody comes to the same conclusion. What’s most efficient and nature is all about efficiency. So the most efficiency is parts of 150 people.

You have a doctor, you have a lawyer, you have all these people in there and they treat themselves well. When we created systems, when a tribe became too big, because we had DNA driven to procreate till 28, I think we are driven. We’re not wanting kids, but we feel we’re wanting kids. And so we do that. And then also we have DNA driven, which I tell you, this is all what science says, but I’m taking it with a grain of salt.

But it makes sense. So DNA driven also that we are inclusive. So if I want to see my power by myself, I can’t see it very hard to see. If I interact with you, you are a reflection of my power and I’m a reflection of your power. So just that people, you know what? You want to see power, it’s not a billion dollars. That is manipulation. That is system manipulation. But you want to see power that’s like JFK.

It’s things they have and it’s humans reacting to you. It’s Churchill. Even though he was system relevant, these people, But there was more than it was the human person, the human, you know, if the person is good or bad, if you judge Gershaw is good or bad or JFK, it doesn’t matter. But the response of humanity, that’s why they were so powerful. They were not just powerful in the system, they just could dance with human. That’s, let’s say that. So I don’t think that’s a good or bad, it’s just a good dance, you know, you can be a cop leader, you know, and that doesn’t help. So anyway, so we are driven to that.

So that was the first thing. What we misunderstand over generations, once we created those systems, those systems have always, by the way, I want to make that point clear. I’m not against system at all. Systems are always good because they have good intentions at the beginning. But the reason why systems get out of hand is every system is not created by nature, created by man-made systems, created by us.

And they are creations by us. And they all systems are based on financial principles. Otherwise, they can’t self-sustain. Humans can self-sustain.

They go into nature, they pick something, they eat something, they are creative and get a habitat or whatever, live in a cave and then come out and build a house. You know, it’s just, we have the creativity to create our habitat. But that doesn’t mean it is our habitat. So we create basically shelter, but that’s not our habitat. Our habitat is nature. And we have not more than another species of nature.

And I told you that before, the eagle sees really well, the dolphin swims really well. We have that, our distinction is that we can be self-aware and that we can create. In the self-awareness, we need that self-awareness to create. And we are limitless creator. But you know, an ant is limitless whatever. And you know, an elk ant is limitless whatever.

So everybody has a specific function in nature. And we forgot that because we got the symptoms, you know, there’s the, what is the shiny object syndrome?

Oli Anderson: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Do you think? So, go ahead. Go ahead.

Oli Anderson: So, do you think that these days, there’s a lot of kind of discontent? There’s kind of an understatement. You know, everyone seems to think that the world has gone mad.

The resources are running out that politics is more divided than ever before. That there’s more depression, there’s more anxiety, that men are not men, women are not women. Nobody really knows what it means to be human or any of this stuff. People are just so confused more than ever before, it seems.

Obviously, I haven’t been alive at any other time in human history, but that’s how it seems. People are just complaining all the time. Is that a symptom of this kind of thing that you’re talking about?

Or is it?

Michaell Magrutsche: Yeah, there’s a symptom of believing that system is our habitat. Actually, nobody would ever say, you know, I’m a child of a system, because systems don’t create humans. But, whenever you last heard that we are a species of nature, because it’s kind of degrading to humans.

That’s an ego shit. How can nature, we have to figure out how water comes up a tree on the, on the yards. We have to figure it out. I mean, science doesn’t replicate. We would replicate that. We haven’t. So we, we exploit nature. Not that it’s not a bad thing.

It’s just a stumbling. So, so as I’m making it, anything bad or good, there is no better good. We’re doing things that don’t work. And we want to say the arrogance to say we have to save nature in that for all the people that want to save nature. There is such an arrogance in it.

Or an absolute non-awareness. Because if you’re aware, if we were aware, we would save, we would exploit nature, but we would save that part of nature that is responsible for our survival. Go ahead.

Go ahead.

Oli Anderson: So let’s take it back to what you just said about the financial principles, basically been the main motivation for these unreal unnatural systems that we build. So obviously, one of the main values we could say of the capitalistic system we have, this caused a lot of problems is profit for the sake of profit.

Let’s just say for the sake of simplicity. And that causes organizations to keep plowing forward, no matter what, for their staff to be kind of dehumanized for people to spend their whole lives working in jobs that they can’t stand and then they retire for a few years and drop dead. That ultimately is fueled by these kind of financial principles that you seem to be referring to, if I understand you right. What is it though that has caused us to want to believe in these financial principles more than nature or reality in itself? Because ultimately the system is a choice, isn’t it?

So why have we chosen the unreal stuff more than the real stuff? Do you think?

Michaell Magrutsche: It comes slowly. Like the most wonderful thing is the financial system. What a great innovation. See, I am a fan of initial systems. I’m not a fan where the system goes once we get used to it, because we just get numb and say, okay, that’s how it is. And also, I need to really say that on the other side of systems are humans that also have to feed their five kids. So it’s not the five kids that are hit by the system and don’t get healthcare.

It’s also the five kids that have to create a system that whatever they do their job, whatever their leader says. There’s a new prime minister and he gets a new tax system. And trust me, those are not rich people that make the new tax systems.

Those are hard workers that are just having a great ability to work with numbers. They create a new tax system and they say, well, where do you go? Okay, we do things this way. And so you’ve got to see the big picture of that, the contextual thing, that on one side we waste our life force to create this tax system. On the other way, we use our life force to circumvent the tax system.

I mean, the more life energy wasted cannot be. This is insane. And there’s problems you can’t blame anybody. You can’t blame systems. You can’t blame other people. You can’t blame the, it’s an awareness thing.

If nobody goes to war, there is no war. It is a consciousness thing. It’s nobody to blame because blame is just propelling the shit we are in.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So if you blame Tony Blair or whatever, you blame anybody for any of all your futures and all whatever happens now or Boris or whatever. It’s not helping. You feel in the second better. That’s systemic too. You feel in the second them because you vent your frustration.

But in real, it’s a short time system thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It doesn’t have you, you lack awareness and awareness is to see the whole. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, 100 % agree.

Oli Anderson: So I think. I think the answer to the question I was just asking about why have we chosen this system is exactly what you just said is because we have chosen it unconsciously. A few minutes ago you said basically it’s all ego shit, right? Ultimately the ego is just the opposite of reality, that’s how I see it, and the ego is just living in an unconscious way instead of a conscious way where you have awareness of wholeness basically.

Reality is wholeness, the ego is fragmentation and when people are operating on autopilot they end up in the ego and then they create all of these fragmented systems that we now have. And so the solution if there is one is for people to start raising awareness of themselves and their connection to wholeness and to start building systems around that knowing rather than all the conceptual knowledge that is currently informing the systems that we’ve got. The problem is you can’t have any kind of a movement, you can’t have any kind of a cause, you can’t have any kind of a religion or dogma or any of that stuff, it’s just something that people can do individually one on one because it’s about our relationship with life itself and that’s where things get complicated.

So to throw you a curveball maybe, what could a system look like maybe that was aligned with nature but that was I suppose life enhancing in the way that we’re talking about, allowing people to find a connection to wholeness and then do something with that collectively as well individually. If that’s even possible, I don’t know if it is.

Michaell Magrutsche: At least possible, of course it is. Everything is possible, we can imagine it, we can put it in reality and this is my next book, the one that I finish right now is about systems, what we’re talking about right now but the next one is about solutions. How we can create a system that is not system-adapt, so the system keeps being alive statically, but a humanist that adapt, systems that a humanist adapt that constantly that have safety measures in, for example that a disturbed human being that for whatever luck or whatever reason comes into the system, takes the system over and creates a war. So that we need to create systems, systems are great but first of all comes the awareness.

So for example you asked me about the financial system, financial system is great, you have a chicken, I have a hammer, neither from us needs a chicken or a hammer, I can use money, what a brilliant thing to sell my chicken or hammer and then we can buy whatever we want to buy.

That is brilliant, that is so creative. But when money, when the system of money which is another manmade system makes money with itself from the system, meaning like AI, now it can systemize a human function, we have forgotten that people love their jobs, some people do love their jobs. Now other people hate their jobs. So now we hope that AI is the solution that we love our jobs but the job loving has nothing to do with the duties of the job, it’s the awareness of how you do with him.

I love to go to work every day, that’s not a day I don’t like to go to work because I meet humans, I meet fresh humans, new humans, I have interaction, it doesn’t matter if I feel sick or not, I love to go to work, that is not depending on the job, that is dependent on my perception of what I perceive in that job and getting to the right job, where can I contribute to humanity, not where can I contribute to systems.

And so until 50 I hit the wall, hit the wall, hit the wall, till I found out, oh, you know, I’m nervous and all this stuff, so what am I good at? Art and art creating, art understanding, art understanding the creation process, not the history, not the product, but the creation process and I’m really good with humans, that took me 50 years to get there. So because I was like everybody else, there’s no exception, nobody’s better, was system conditioned over generation and my parents taught me that crap.

And so the rarest is first.

Oli Anderson: Yeah, it always has to start with awareness and I think that’s where the creativity thing comes in, but I always think the next step after awareness is acceptance of ourselves, reality and like what is possible in the world itself. But there is something in the current system that is blocking both of those steps. So normally for me, it goes awareness, acceptance and action. So you get the awareness, then you accept what you need to accept, then you can take actual action that is going to get you where you need to be.

If the system allowed that to unfold as a natural process, then I think a lot more people would be happier and they would be able to live lives where they’re moving towards wholeness and they’re doing all the kind of things that we’re talking about. But because the world is not real, it’s just a bunch of ideas, it’s a bunch of fears, it’s a bunch of assumptions. And because those assumptions and fears and all that stuff are informed by people’s unreal relationships with themselves, that they pick up from their parents and that they reinforce through self-agnosis and all that kind of stuff, things just keep getting worse and worse. And even in the best possible scenarios for systems like in pure capitalism, for example, which I love, it could be, yeah, you have an idea, you work really hard at it, you take personal responsibility, you do what you need to do and then you created something of value for the market, so you transcend yourself in that process, blah, blah, blah.

That’s all awesome. The problem is the system always becomes corrupt when ego is involved. So for example, bailing out the banks is kind of corruption in a way, depending on your definition, nepotism and things like that. People don’t allow the natural systems or the most possible natural systems to flow in the way that they could. There’s always ego, bullshit getting in the way. So how can we deal with that, do you think? If that even makes sense, what I’m saying?

Michaell Magrutsche: No, Oli, it was really great what you said, because you’re doing what everybody else does. You teeter-totter between systems and human relevance.

You tetter-totter in that. And I cannot be fixed by systems. Every human problem that a system created or systems created, depression, mind stuff, anything. Do you think you can create racism that was created by systems?

Genderism was created by systems, sexual things was created by systems, religions. Do you think you can fix that with political correctness, need to, life’s matter? Do you really, who is in their mind? And what the perception of that is, is what I see in this whole thing, what I just saw with you is people are so unaware that they blame the system.

They think they actually believe that a system that got them in there, to be racist in the first place, to be, to put down women and say, woman, where’s anything, go behind the stove and cook for your man. They now have a system solution for a human, we are way too intricate humans. Systems that are so limited can fix us. That’s a problem with systems.

They are very limited. A doll is a doll. When you create it, you cannot ask the doll, hey, who should I marry?

What stock should I invest? The doll cannot answer that. You can imagine it says that, but you can’t, there is something about a living being that is godly. I’m not religious or anything, but it is above our comprehension.

Otherwise, we would crank out humans out of any old coal mines. You know what I mean? So, there is something godly and we have no respect for it. I mean, what you said, thank you for Tito Tartar, because this is giving us this conversation. It’s our system. I guarantee you, 90 % of our problems would be gone tomorrow if people were, if I could wave a wand and say, be aware.

Because it’s awareness. You don’t need steps. You don’t need linear steps. First, I gotta do this. Then I gotta do this. No, just shift. You just change.

And that is the key to separate system relevance or dynamics to human relevance and demand. Where’s your problem coming? You have not a problem. You make it a human problem because you should have shelter and food. Every human should have that because that’s by nature given. You live every animal in the nature has. I mean, if we don’t screw it up, every animal in nature has food.

Every animal in nature has food. Everybody should have that because financial principles, which is a great system again makes a imbalance. And you know our so we using our third superpower of adaptability. We use that third superpower for adaptability to adapt to a system and that’s where breaks down. Instead of, you know, using adaptability and say, okay, it starts raining. I’m going to go and get a shelter.

We buy something or we do something and then it rains and then it’s too much water and we don’t know what to do. You know, we forgot that I mean, this is how to engage with somebody. Yeah, do you know that dating industry, I’m just saying it. They found out, you know, we have like 15 years dating and just $2 billion industry. That’s a human thing.

You just go to another person and friend them. Right. Now we pay for that.

We pay for human function, because the system needs to work and then it makes it easier and it makes it easier to not use the system will do everything. It’s not a bad thing. I don’t want to talk to this like a person. It’s we have been uncons, become unconscious that because on the other side of the system say, okay, how can I make that easier to date through an app?

How can I get that better? And now everybody dates and now they find out that the dating, you know, they, the system show you only the one that work and not the one that don’t work. Like in everything they show, you know, they talk about Elon Musk to talk about Jeff Bezos, talk about the viral videos.

And there’s only 1 % a half of one of 1 % are those icons that we follow. So now they found out, you know what, I’ve dated the younger generation, I’ve dated 10 years on an app. I don’t know how to engage anybody. And if I do, I get a black lives matter me too.

You know, I take a risk to be human. Yeah, that’s all. That’s what you see. Awareness thing.

Oli Anderson: Yeah, yeah, yeah. But the only thing you can be aware of is reality, ultimately, right? And the only thing you can accept is reality. And when you can get to that stage, What is reality? What is reality? I don’t understand what is reality? Reality is just wholeness. It’s wholeness. It is what it is. It doesn’t change all of this.

Michaell Magrutsche: Oh, you mean effect on your life. So whatever it is, is okay. So this is, yeah, you accept it. You don’t judge it. You don’t, you don’t really. Yeah, you can’t judge it. Yeah, it’s beyond judgment, beyond duality, all that kind of stuff. And ultimately, that comes down to chaos.

Oli Anderson: That’s basically it, right? Reality is way beyond our fragmented understanding, our conceptual understanding. And that understanding is what informs the systems that we build, because ultimately, we’re afraid of chaos. We’re afraid to go into the unknown. We’re afraid that, you know, things might go wrong. We have scarcity mindsets. We think we’re going to run out of food or resources, whatever it is.

And so because of all that, we build these systems of kind of false order in order to kind of protect ourselves from all of the uncomfortable feelings that come from that. And actually what you were saying about problems a few minutes ago is totally true. Most problems can only exist within the context of the system or within the world or within the ego.

Because the ego, like I’ve said earlier on, is the opposite of reality. It’s the opposite of wholeness. And actually, because wholeness, like we just said, reality is beyond good and bad, it’s beyond duality and all that stuff. There are actually zero problems in reality.

And so our ego and the world, or egos in the world, they ultimately keep us in a state of perceiving problems that don’t need to exist. And that’s when you get all these extra problems emerging, like all the things you said, like the gender stuff and identity stuff and racism, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. All of that stuff exists within the system for two reasons, I think.

One, because people are afraid of chaos so they latch onto very controlled senses of identity to keep their emotional stuff at bay. But also, it basically keeps people in a state where they’re fighting over limited perceptions of power. Ultimately, in the systems that we create, power becomes a limited resource. Instead of people just having the abundance of power that they have in reality itself, if that makes sense.

And so all of these little battles, these power struggles are what leads to a lot of this stuff that we’re seeing, I think.

Michaell Magrutsche: No, no, no, no. You are completely, I wouldn’t say anything wrong. I’m saying you still teeter-tottering between system and human. So you see that as a, instead of saying, hey, we created it, we can uncreate it. We’re the gods of system. There’s nobody, and the ego is, the system obviously has conditioned over generation our ego. Our ego is not a bad thing. You know who you are. I can say, oh, all you’re an idiot. But you know who you are. I am, you know, there’s two people that are not much in the ego anymore.

They have harness there. Obviously, I can get in the ego anytime, but I’ve know that. And you can know that too. So ego is basically a thing that is amplified through system lies. You wouldn’t be an ego if you’re aware. People that are unaware are in an ego, meaning when you get fed, when you get fed by the system through other humans, because they need to make money, that it should be sunny every day.

If it is not, we sell you a Ferrari, a pill or a face job. I always say that same example, because I want that to get in the oven, Echola. That’s a lie. Because everything is constantly changing.

That’s not spiritual. That is, we constantly change. When you have a partner, if we will have this conversation is different than we had when we had the other conversation. So we constantly change.

We constantly get more aware. Even in prison, you change if you want or not. And you die every night when you sleep. And then you wake up again. So when people change, it can’t be sunny every day. Because when you grow, which is the is the instinct that humans have, even if they get a sickness, if they go go be on the street, that is a way of growing that your spirit needs or your awareness needs, whatever that is. You hit reality.

You hit other people that are also growing. So it’s never safe. Life is never safe. The only safe is being now, is you right now. I don’t care if I have to be bills. I don’t care if I have to be the dog. I have another meeting in two hours.

I don’t care about that. I could go into that mind construct, but then I’m lost of the moment. And, and when I’m lost of the moment, I go into ego. Because I think about future and past and mind construct. The mind cannot save you. That is another thing is that, oh, we make you mindful.

We make you all the coaching. Look at this. No, we can’t. Well, we can be good.

That’s a mind construct. What is this person when I look at you first as a, oh, the English guy. If you are a woman, I said, Oh, he’s here. He’s a woman. She’s a woman.

Oh, she’s another race than I am. That’s how we start navigating. And so this is another human. This is me.

Let’s see what we do. Like in podcasts. That’s why I see podcasts as a wonderful, because you never knew the person before and you prove to the world that people that don’t know each other can make immense. You know, you don’t have to have the best friend to have a good conversation. You can have a conversation like this.

We don’t know each other. You know, it’s just, and we’re making something great out of it. And the financial principles is one thing we need to be aware of. So not everybody can be Elon Musk. Elon Musk is one of one.

There’s 8 billion people on this earth. Everybody has a different fingerprint. Everybody has a different iris. Everybody has a different DNA. So there is no normal. But for some reason, because we’re adaptable, we think there is a normal. No system ever saying what is to be a normal co-worker.

What is it that be a normal CEO? Nobody can say that. They always say what you can’t do, but they never say what it is. Yeah. So it’s confusing there too. So this is the second line.

That is, if I can do it, you can do it. Such a bullshit. I’ve never heard. I’ve never heard a bigger bullshit than this because my neurodiversity, I’m not the victim or anything. I just don’t fit into the system that way because I’m on the bell curve on the tails of a bell curve that I’m flawed.

Nature doesn’t make mistakes. You have life. That’s the proof that you’re worthy. You don’t need to think about God or anything else.

You have life in nature. You’re worthy. Not your better. You’re not worth it. You’re not better, worse. You’re worthy. And that’s all that all that all come. You just fit your puzzle piece in humanity, not in systems. I’m important because I’ve kind of found my puzzle piece, but it took me so long. Yeah. In humanity, I don’t care if I fit into the system or not.

Doesn’t matter. I have to abide by the system, by laws and whatever, but I don’t mind fitting into the system.

Oli Anderson: The question is, how do we build systems that are human-shaped? We actually need both. It’s a false dichotomy to say, right? It’s either reality or the world.

We need a world that is supportive of human nature and reality. That means it understands this gap between the ego or the mental constructs that we have and how that seems to operate. So for brevity, we can say that the ego is just the illusion of status. It’s the illusion that things stay the same, that reality doesn’t keep moving. It’s the illusion that we can control everything. It’s the illusion that order is the natural state rather than chaos and all these things.

And when we build a system around that because of our own fears and everything, that’s when we actually end up with an unreal world. But that doesn’t mean that all systems by default have to be unreal. If the system is fluid, the system is flexible, the system embraces the ability that we have to adapt and all that kind of stuff.

We can actually not, we won’t need to tell or any of that stuff. We can build a system that is human-shaped and life-enhancing. And that means it understands or is based on assumptions that the ego is only ever a temporary thing. It’s the best version of ourselves that we have come up with in order to survive whatever we’ve been through. But that doesn’t mean it’s who we actually are. And so the system doesn’t need to reinforce egos. It can help people to kind of move beyond them and to transcend themselves. But that means probably having a certain set of values that encourages people to keep creating in healthy ways, to keep moving towards wholeness, to transcend themselves, to give instead of take all these different things that it could entail. But it doesn’t have to be one or the other.

We could have systems ultimately that allow us to kind of replicate nature, maybe not 100%, but more closely than we are doing now.

Michaell Magrutsche: One of the words that doesn’t exist in human. I just want to point that out to you. One or the other is it’s a system thing. There’s one and two, you know, one and zero, right? It’s not.

That’s a system that is a system definition. All is, there is no normal. There is not either or because we’re eight million people that are all different. So the delusion that we’re all the same is another lie. We are not the same. We’re not all the same.

Oli Anderson: That’s obviously incorrect. But there are natural laws and principles that apply to all of us, no matter what. So yeah, maybe you got, you might have purple hair and I might have blue hair, whatever. You might like, I don’t know, Woody Allen films or something. And I like watching action films, like all of those contingent surface level details. And the scenery of our lives is different. But the underlying structure of the human experience is the same.

Michaell Magrutsche: Like gravity.

Oli Anderson: Yeah, like gravity. We both have to deal to gravity. We both, we both have to be aware, but see long enough in the system that we constantly changing.

Michaell Magrutsche: Yeah, yeah. I’m changing. Yeah, yeah. I probably change 100 times in this conversation. You know what I mean?

Oli Anderson: That yeah, yeah, of course. But that constant change is one of the natural laws that we need to be aware of. And so if the current system is built on the idea that people don’t really change after the, you know, the age of 21 or whatever, that is a pure bullshit system. If we act like we’re going to live forever and that property and things like that are more important than the time that we have, because time is the most precious thing we have. That is a bullshit system.

Michaell Magrutsche: If we forget the law of cause and effect, system lie, it becomes a system lie. Yeah. Yeah.

Oli Anderson: Yeah. And so what I’m saying is, if we understand those natural laws and we have awareness of those things, and we build a system around that, that is going to be the, the best approximation of a system that is human-shaped. It’s not an ego driven system. It’s a system that is fluid and moves towards wholeness and all that kind of stuff or is aligned with wholeness, rather than just been some response or reaction to life and chaos based on our inability to face it because we need our egos to stay the same.

Michaell Magrutsche: Something like that. I would, I would, I would go away from the ego because ego is a, is something that is system amplified. And it’s almost changing ourselves as human that we have an ego. You know what I mean?

Yeah. We are unaware. It’s all about our awareness because you can’t, you can’t blame Boris, what he did. You can’t blame anybody.

You can’t, but you can’t because he’s unaware, because if he was aware, he wouldn’t be like that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. So if, if I know, I mean, I mean, the 15 people were educated people, system people, decided over 11 million Jews to be killed, 15 people. Do you think they were aware?

Oli Anderson: No, they can’t have been.

Michaell Magrutsche: I’m just saying you, you, the more unaware you be in the more gruesome you are, do you think the people say, I’m going into the war and I’m going to die?

That’s okay. Because I have a system ideal that I have to do it for country. You don’t even know, but you do it for the people. So a warrior in a tribe is to make the tribe feel safe to protect them from animals or whatever comes, you know, that is a warrior.

It’s not a warrior to sacrifice your life. Yeah. Yeah. That is a completely system-evented human, how humans be supposed to be in systems. Yeah.

Yeah. That’s why they’re honored with medals and everybody says on veterans day, you know, but in really, yeah, you see this perverted is completely perverted because nobody wants to shoot another father, you know, that has three kids and he doesn’t even know that he’s not in the human essence. And that’s an unawareness. We get to get wacky in our brains to do inhumane things because we believe over generation, that is the right thing to do.

And it’s always missing. That’s the right thing to do.

Oli Anderson: It becomes down to how the system basically brain washes, as I guess, into seeing certain things has been moral or immoral. And now we react to that.

But I think there’s an extra level. It’s not just the system reinforcing the identity. That does play a massive part the world’s saying oh you should do this you should do that and he gets repeated over and over again And of course the system often wants people to be unaware because they’re easier to control that way and it goes.

Michaell Magrutsche: I don’t believe that – they are in a position where they make a lot of money and they don’t want to lose it. It’s all a fear-based.

It’s all fear-based. Let’s say and then redo healthcare. Yeah, and I see I’m running out of money and that that affects my job so I will do everything to survive Survival, you know, you always do self-survival if you’re pushing in a corner The nicest person is an asshole, you know that becomes it comes a beast And the problem is that that this imbalance of financial principles Always gets money to the more not from the asshole people But by by default where more money is that’s where money flows It’s it’s also you cannot play monopoly without paper money You cannot start playing the game. So when you are born in poverty You have to do kind of a really strong hustle to make it If you’re born into wealth and privilege You can can do it. How? What determines wealth and privilege and poverty is the financial system And the financial system is basically flawed. It’s perfect. For example, you and I said before But it is flawed because it creates imbalance and in nature the most power Is balance everything but nature always balance and harmony.

Yeah, yeah Balance and harmony has no Has no bearing on financial systems.

Oli Anderson: Hmm. Well, what I was gonna say is There’s the external stuff that comes from the world okay, that affects how people see themselves and what they decide to do and what they think is possible and blah blah blah but There’s that extra element of their relationship with themselves So for example, you could have two people that are born in poverty One of them could be blaming Boris Johnson or Tony Blair or whoever the hell for their their impoverished condition The other one is going to take responsibility for themselves basically and say right it’s up to me.

I’m going to do this. The person who is taking responsibility for their own life Is pretty much guaranteed to make more progress than the person who’s just blaming everybody And the only difference really between them is their emotional relationship with themselves – so the first person who’s blaming everyone their emotional relationship ultimately is causing them to like beat themselves up to be sluggish to think there’s no hope and all that kind of stuff .

Obviously, you can’t blame them for being that way but the other person who’s taking more responsibility is more likely to be able to change things in the system for themselves and the only difference between them really is the choice between unreal and real if you’re blaming everybody like we said you’re getting caught up in the illusion of duality and value judgments and blah blah. And if you if you’re taking the other approach while you’ve been a bit more real you say right This is the situation. I’m aware of it.

I accept it this is what I’m going to try and do and so It’s not just the system. It’s like our Our relationship with ourselves if the ego is involved I know you you know, we see the ego differently, but if the if the ego is involved there is another system inside ourselves that we have to fight and it’s not purely externally sourced – it is basically our internal Emotional stuff. So shame, guilt, trauma or all those kind of things.

They’re affecting How we even get started in the first place?

Michaell Magrutsche: Exactly. So so very good that you said that last sentence because it is not given that you you have the choice you have the choice, but you’re not aware that you have to choice.

Yeah. Yeah psychology 101 teaches that there were two sons of alcoholic And the one is the total copy of the father. The other one is the one of the greatest lawyers in new york and I said Why are you You know, uh, why? You know, why are you the way you are when look at your brother? And they say because and both say the same answer because my father was an alcoholic It it is I had no choice.

My father was an alcoholic. So what I’m saying is that We need the unawareness Of the because there’s a lot of people that that are in my position that have have a life thing. They’re dead They haven’t lived they have gotten themselves into drugs Have to go if you don’t look at any minority it doesn’t fit into system and I could have ended up on drugs dead You know giving up being a victim And I tell you I have no I must say that because people think the system says, oh, you can just choose Bullshit, I didn’t choose that that happened to me that I my spirits is very strong That is a part of me. But if I had a weaker spirit I would have been dead And and that’s why I say we have to it’s not forgiving. It’s we have to understand The the preciousness of life Yeah, and that it is that it is not just oh systemic you can you can make a choice a mindset Fuck mindsets Because I’m sorry a mindset or mindset mindset this mindset is leadership coaching that people don’t even know what a leader is Hmm, you know, look at how much leadership coaching you have but It’s insane.

What’s the What is the difference in your opinion between Having a strong spirit and having a weak spirit like what’s the missing thing you’re born with If you wouldn’t know that if I would you know, it just happened Hmm You you are you know, you experience this life as a weak spirit or is a lot a strong spirit and hopefully in this life you can because you you’re a part of nature Grow from that because we’re always changing a weak spirit can a strong spirit a strong spirit Has become a weak spirit. You know that when they go into a strong spirit with the system He blows up. He goes into his ego your favorite word and and and and and then He you know systems He kills himself or whatever It’s just I mean and there’s no Tony Bourdain.

It’s the best example. There’s a guy that grew up Very low, you know, not his a middle class and then And I exploded he got everything he wanted and you know, he was honest in that what he wanted to achieve He got that and then he off himself Yeah, because it’s it’s it’s it’s What you imagine? Systemically you fit in Is irrelevant. Hmm. You gotta be you Yeah, that’s what it all about. You gotta be you you gotta find you in a human context not In a system context and that is the problem why we get lost because we try to find ourselves in a system context.

Oli Anderson: Yeah, yeah, I totally agree. We look for ourselves in the world The world is unreal anyway And that just causes us to be more detached from our spirit or the real part of ourselves I I personally think I think and I’ve experienced what is real within us is always real and so I kind of disagree that we you know, we’re just born with a weak spirit or a strong spirit I think we all have a strong spirit all the time, but the problem is some of us because of our life experience we get conditioned to believe that that spirit is is dwindled or that the flame has gone out or whatever you want to say.

But actually that is just the state of disconnection that we have learned ultimately and and it’s partly because of the system, it’s partly because of our families, it’s partly because of all the bullshit that we hypnotize ourselves with and the the beliefs that we pick up and the stories we tell ourselves all that stuff All of those things.

Michaell Magrutsche: No, no, no going going Because then you would say it’s my fault That I because I was a sick child. I couldn’t fit into any system.

You say it’s my fault that I got strong bullshit I had no idea I had no idea That I had absolutely no idea That I will survive over Anything I lived in the moment because I had to because I couldn’t breathe I was always in the most forced in the moment. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. I was planning things or whatever And you are If you say everybody’s the same your system, that’s a system answer. Nobody’s the same. Nobody has a strong set everybody’s unique.

Oli Anderson: Yeah, we’ve been you you already agreed though, right? So So, reality ultimately is just wholeness.

That’s it, right? And so that applies to the reality of those as individuals as well. So the expression of that wholeness is obviously different. We have different bodies, we have different life experiences, blah, blah, blah. But the wholeness is wholeness, it’s always the same. There’s no escaping that.

And you can’t lose it. And so yeah, maybe you get sick or something and you’re having a bad day. Personally, in my own life, I’ve been really sick as well and it actually woke me up, it raised my awareness so that I can see this side of myself, this real whole connection that was there all along. And it’s not about saying that, if people are disconnected from that wholeness, then there’s something wrong with them. It’s just a thing.

Michaell Magrutsche:No, no, no, that is the right thing.

That’s the right thing. We are all connected to the wholeness. Yeah, yeah. Remembering that helps us. But so if we can tell young people, like you and I, the old guys, can tell young people, is you are, this is why I always say, know your species of nature. Have an animal that you talk to or interact with that you can’t just say, hey, clean the dishes. Learn, because you hone your, a pet, hones your senses. You know? So you’re a part of nature and never forget that. And in the system, we all play monopoly. That’s fine. We all agree that we play on that monopoly thing, but you are a part of nature and your wholeness, you find through the nature because nature is perfect.

It is perfect. It doesn’t have to, oh, we have now 2000 elephants more. It doesn’t, like I said, the lion doesn’t go on this thing. I say, okay, I have to kill every gazelle and on this savanna because I need some food tomorrow. That’s a mind construct that an animal doesn’t have.

Yeah, yeah. He kills it, eats it, and then an hour later, a gazelle is like whatever, five yards from him and grazing. Because the gazelle is in touch with the lion, that he’s full.

So he’s not a threat to her or him. So it’s our natural ways. We have everything, but to be in the human habitat, believing that the human habitat is a system because we are born in a hospital, we are baptized, we are in school, that’s conditioning. They tell you, and because you learn what it is to be from zero to seven, you learn to be what is to be human. And then from seven, you learn how to interact with a bigger family than your family.

You get taught the wrong things because you get in condition for financial, for the system. Where are we going to put Oli? I don’t know. Oh, he’s gonna be a steel worker. Okay, and that program you do a steel worker because we need steel workers.

That you wanna be an artist, that you wanna be a writer, that you wanna be a podcast. I don’t see.

Oli Anderson: Yeah, and that’s it. The system is designed according to what the economy needs and blah, blah, blah. And you either become aware of that and you wake up or you’re done and then you have this restless feeling inside of your whole life because the real version of you, that wholeness never got an expression. That’s ultimately, I guess, what we say. We’ve been talking for nearly an hour.

It’s flown by. Have you got any final words to sum up this conversation? Like, obviously we’ve been all over the place.

Michaell Magrutsche: I have a question that just came to me is that, what is, I don’t even know how to verbalize it, but help me with this.

I say, what is it? What is the justification that we are a part of nature? If you, I mean, you can’t disagree we are not a part of nature, right? So we are part of nature.

Nature is perfect. Why do people not have a shelter and enough food to eat when we throw almost two thirds of food away? What is the human experience? I’m not carrying off the system explanation.

What is the human explanation? Why we should have people dying poverty? Because right now it doesn’t matter. The billionaire as well as the beggar all worry about money.

They both worry about the same thing, money. The beggar to get it, the millionaires to lose it, not to live his life anyway. So what is the human reason? Why there should not people, how every human being should have enough food, a shelter? I’m not saying a castle. I’m saying enough shelter, you can shelter.

They can choose to find himself in work or find himself where to fit in. You don’t have that choice anymore. You get today when you go in school, you don’t even know how to survive.

You’re growing up with the efficiency. And financial principle is conditioning. It’s always not enough.

Every quarter you need to make more, more better. And that’s not natural either. That is not natural. So my question is, what is the human explanation? Why not every human being should have food and shelter?And medical care.

Oli Anderson: Like, obviously, I’ve got some ideas I could throw out there. I don’t know if you…

Michaell Magrutsche:Throw it, throw it.

Oli Anderson: It’s ultimately… Like I’m trying to keep this simple. Obviously there’s the idea that scarcity is part of nature, right? Nature actually is not scarce in any way.

Michaell Magrutsche:No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. You show me where scarcity is in nature.

Oli Anderson:  That’s what I’m saying. Yeah, yeah, like nature is abundant, right? The system makes scarcity a thing so that’s caused people to have more fear around these kinds of things. But the other thing I think in nature, it’s not all up to us.

This is the thing, right? In nature, we are interdependent. It’s about other beings, tribal creatures working together, all this kind of stuff. It’s about the relationship between us and life. And the relationship between you and life means, again, you have to take my favorite word out of the equation.

You have to take your ego out of the equation. If you want to acquire food or shelter or whatever, there is an element of… I don’t want to say coincidence, but there are certain elements that you cannot control. It’s up to fate or destiny in a way for you to be able to acquire the things that you need to acquire. And in nature, you either keep acquiring those things, so it seems like fate is on your side, or you don’t acquire those things, and then you eventually die. But if you keep getting the things because of this abundance that you’re tapped into, then you have to see that it is not just up to you.

You might come up with a plan: I’m gonna go out and I’m gonna hunt a saber-toothed tiger, whatever it is. But that plan is just the best plan that you have currently been able to come up with because of your ego, ultimately, and what you think is gonna happen then. So the more attached you are to that plan, the more your ego is involved. But actually, when you get out there and you start living a real life and you become attached to nature again, or attuned to nature, sorry, not attached, you realize that you can’t do it that way. That is scarcity thinking again, thinking that it’s totally up to you, that you are the only one in control of your life. And so I think the reason so many people in poverty and so on and so forth is because we have bought into this systemic bullshit thing that it’s up to us and nobody else when actually it’s about life or God or the universe or whatever you wanna call it, it’s way bigger than just one person being in control of that.

And so I would say it’s something to do with that and I don’t know if that’s opening a can of worms.

Michaell Magrutsche: No, no we are not built to to being scarcity you know the only fear you should have is when thesabre tooth is in front of your cave or you almost get hit by a bus. The fear is that’s why it’s an alarmist and now we have 90 % system say 90 % in the fears and this is why I said at the beginning and I’ll fix the system problem with the system solution. You and I have to talk to each other yeah to become aware if you and I wouldn’t have talked to each other because we both became very much aware of it second superpower dialogue human dialogue not system dialogue I’m right you’re wrong you know so so we that’s the second first creativity dialogue second third out of the ability wow and if we so we need to we need to be you said it we need to be aware and we need to be aware that we’re built for inclusion we’re not yeah versus…

Oli Anderson: One one final thing I want to throw in there is this idea of trust so earlier on when I was ranting about you know the world versus reality I said something like ultimately reality wholeness from our limited human vantage point is chaos it we it’s about uncertainty and you know we don’t we can’t understand every little step in the chain of cause and effect so we don’t have all of the information things don’t make sense sometimes even though in in nature in reality everything is perfect it doesn’t always seem that way when we’re not aware yeah yeah exactly and so the missing ingredient really between the world and reality is trust that’s why I think right when you’ve been real when you understand about wholeness and you’ve got this awareness that we’re talking about even though you don’t you know you’re not on mission you don’t understand everything you can conceptually at least you still have the trust that things are gonna work out you trust the chaos of nature you trust the chaos of life you trust the chaos of wholeness the system is not built around that kind of trust the system in general is built as a reaction to not trusting life and so you try to control it at every level and you can’t do that and when you build a system like that and it goes you know from one generation to the next people just become less and less trusting of life itself and that’s what causes all these causes a lot of these issues that we’ve been kind of alluding to.

Michaell Magrutsche: I would exchange the two words I would say trust is awareness because you can’t trust ever if you’re not aware yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah okay and I was chased chaos with uncertainty chaos is a system word both assistant words trust trust us because we give you insurance there are system words you need to also do a vernacular to human I’m gonna write in this book that I’m that that’s coming out I’m gonna do all the vernacular because when I hear chaos I cringe when I hear trust I cringe because that’s a both systemic they’re not they’re not they’re not human trust you it’s easy for me to trust if I’m aware this is gonna happen or this is like if I trust gravity that’s the thing I’m aware of gravity yeah and if I chaos means oh it’s so tainted that’s so stem so systemically trained that chaos it’s like who wants to be chaos digitalism in chaos in harmony yeah it’s uncertain though see and that’s also the word the ego you know because it’s so you have an echo if you are the master of everybody if you adapt your vernacular to human versus system even this see I mean this is great that you are that way because we become aware shit we use the wrong words or you know we use better words boom and all of a sudden it works so hang on to the human because you are human and you are aware of human is the power so human relevance is it.

Oli Anderson: We could go on for a long time but like ultimately though there’s there’s a reality shaped way of doing things and there’s a you know like an anthropocentric way of doing things where we say that it’s the human beings at the end of the line that is still and it’s in it’s an almost I keep using the word because I always I think this word work it’s an egotistical way of doing it like saying that it’s all about humanism or be human-shaped or that you know everything needs to be filtered through the lens of the human animal and the way they perceive and understand things that is it’s still bullshit is bullshit – like actually it’s about understanding the human nature so that you can kind of experience something more than that to the greatest extent possible and I know that sounds like a bit of a paradox but it’s about understanding that the universe does not revolve around human beings.

Like human beings are amazing and we’re part of nature as a system or whatever word you want to use but if we think that everything has to be under human volition or human control that’s when we we end up screwing ourselves over… it’s about knowing the shining object syndrome…

Michaell Magrutsche: Exactly that’s it we built London like we must be kings you know we built New York we must be godlike…

Oli Anderson: Yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah it’s ego again it’s bullshit that’s why I wanted to say earlier so when you mentioned the shiny objects in drum earlier actually the shiniest objects to human beings right now in this day and age is human beings and it we’re looking at it yeah yeah but we’re not that shiny and we’re not that special we’re not that interesting we’re all amazing and we can have amazing lives and do amazing things but perfect that way of thinking just fuck it’ll fuck your life up basically and so it’s about transcending that and giving your life to something bigger and it can be anything like some people you can they give their lives to God you give your life to nature the universe – it can be certain values – it doesn’t matter you need to find something bigger, give it to that, and then the system won’t affect you as much because the system is bigger than any human and human and never and human beings aren’t shit anyway so like if you first you give to the system then to humanity then something bigger and that’s only you know what that is so yeah that’s my little rant about that… how how how are we gonna finish this conversation?

Michaell Magrutsche: Seeing systems don’t work without humans and humans work without systems even though we have a hard time to work without system yeah but nothing nothing works without human no sales no – I mean I see it in restaurants – people have their concept and whatever I said you’re always dependent you can have the best food you can have the best waiters you have the best chef you have everybody… if the server doesn’t put a spoon in something or doesn’t do, you know, drops at you or is drunk all this stuff thing and the guest relationship is also human so humans define you the experience so it’s not about the best chef and whatever it’s about the whole experience – always the whole.

So the team the waiters is exactly as much the dishwasher is exactly as much worth then then the manager and the money giver you have to create the inclusion of the team and have a horizontal conversation everybody knows anyway that is the owner you don’t need to… but you have to function as a team when we function as a team like you and I right now we’re wrapping it up right so that’s it’s always said together it’s never a oh all you’re an idiot you don’t know you know it’s just it’s just everything just isyeah so thank you, Oli, and and you can reach me on Michael Michael with two L’s Michael and we can do this anytime.

Oli Anderson: Awesome. I’ll share your link in the show notes but yeah thank you for this conversation you’ve given me a lot to think about hopefully a vice versa, baby, and yeah absolutely absolutely awesome yeah all right well I’ll talk to you again 100 % sometimes too yeah thanks y’all appreciate it you


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